Ultramarathon Daily News, Tue, July 19

Ultramarathon and Trail News From Around the World

NatGeo covers ultramarathons: One hundred mile races are more popular–and competitive–than ever.

Uh-oh: Robbie Britton claims/reports that 5th place finisher at UTMB last year has tested positive for EPO.

“You might think you’re going to be in this kind of shape for the foreseeable future. Odds are you aren’t. Don’t miss opportunities while waiting for the perfect alignment of VO2 max, competitive zest, fast course and salutary weather. Go carpe some diems while you can.”

–This and more in Mario’s Morning Shakeout.

For the ladies’ girls: How to prolong the life of your sportsbra.

Probably not a big surprise: Backpackers still aren’t very thrilled with trail runners in the Grand Canyon.

All I’m gonna say about this: Imagine watching a final four game in basketball. It’s 4th quarter, 5 seconds left, 100-99. They sink a free throw to tie it up, then both teams walk off the court to end the game in a tie, leaving fans and sponsors utterly confused.

A definite winner at HR was trackleader.com’s coverage of the race. Accurate, easy to navigate, and fast. I hope more RD’s use that service.

Meanwhile, the impact of a 4th place finish at Olympic track and field finals.

Standings/results from Vol State 500k, with Laz’s requisite color commentary.

Speaking of ultra ultramarathons, Damian Hall recently set the FKT for the 630 mile South West Coast Path in the UK. Here’s a full interview about the trek.

Speedgoat Karl is going for another Appalachian Trail FKT attempt. Awesome!

Speaking of the AT, I just got a pair of these special edition Brooks, and really don’t want to get them dirty.

Watch this: Gary Robbins’ ten essentials for safe back country running.

I spent Saturday afternoon thru early Sunday morning pacing Joseph Altendahl for thirty miles at Tahoe Rim Trail. Fun times seeing people and checking out TRT’s incredible aid stations. Joseph finished in 29:xx while I was passed out in my car.

48 Responses to "Ultramarathon Daily News, Tue, July 19"

Emir says:

July 19, 2016 at 6:55 am

Honestly, none us know what we would do in this situation. Could you or I run sub 24 Hardrock with Kilian? The sport allows it. It seems like both Kilian and Jason were extremely happy with the outcome.Reference

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Joey Schrichte says:

July 19, 2016 at 7:06 am

It’s hard to explain. But if you’ve never been to Hardrock as a runner, spectator, volunteer, crew or pacer it’s hard to express the atmosphere of the run. The word community always gets thrown around in talks about what’s so great about the trail and ultra world. This was my first Hardrock experience and the community vibe this run embodies is top notch and like no other race I have been to. This truly is a run against the terrain and not the other competitors. And if I remember correctly the original meaning of the word “compete” is to perform with others. Not against.Reference

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 7:19 am
  
  Never been there, so I can’t comment on the atmosphere. My question is why race then? Why not just go out on a run and conquer the terrain? It’s totally and completely their decision and prerogative to finish how they choose, my only commentary is that this is something relatively unique to our sport.
  And “compete”:
  com·pete
  kəmˈpēt/Submit
  verb
  strive to gain or win something by defeating or establishing superiority over others who are trying to do the same.
  
  Reply
  1. Joey Schrichte says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 7:40 am
    
    Not sure where I read it, but I do remember the original translation was to “strive with” not against. Schlarb and Kilian fed off each other and pushed each other towards the finish line. And from the start of Hardrock it has always been emphasized that it’s a run not a race. Dale does an amazing job acknowledging everyone who finished and even those that finished after the cut off. The awards ceremony is very touching and personalized.
    
    Reply
    1. Zak says:
      
      July 19, 2016 at 8:32 am
      
      The Latin root, “competere”, means to strive for something together with another and the The New Short OED includes a definition of striving with or against another.
      
      Reply
      1. eric schranz says:
        
        July 19, 2016 at 8:39 am
        
        Semantics. Call it what you want, but it’s a race. “So and so won Hardrock last year”, “the six-time winner of Western States”, etc. There’s no winners if it’s not a race, and there are definitely winners.
    2. RH says:
      
      July 19, 2016 at 8:49 am
      
      Joey, you aren’t wrong but that isn’t the most common definition of the word.
      
      Definition 2a. given by the Oxford English Dictionary defines “compete” as: “To strive with another, for the attainment of a thing, in doing something.” This comes from the Latin “competĕre”: “to strive after (something) in company or together”, – “together” + “to aim at, go toward, try to reach, seek, etc.”
      
      IMO, they should’ve gone for the individual win as it’s a race not a FKT. Incredible performances either way though.
      
      Reply
  2. Jamie says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 8:03 am
    
    I like it. After 20 plus hours working together through the mountains, they decided that they didn’t want to compete against each other down the homestretch. I’m not sure you’d get the same decision if one of them had just caught the other one after running separately all day. Who knows? But in the context of their run, it makes a lot of sense and shows some perspective and mutual respect. Competing is an aspect of running ultras, but it doesn’t have to be the be all and end all. If that is unique to our sport, then good for our sport. There’s a reason Hardrock and many other ultras are called an “endurance run” and not “race.” Racing against others is not the only reason for participating.
    
    I’m not sure I see any important difference from the brother and sister you recently interviewed. There’s no difficulty in understanding why they entered a race or why they didn’t just go for a long run instead. No one finds it odd that they didn’t try to out-sprint each other. Why is it any harder to understand that two fast people decided to work together in such a hard race?
    
    I do wonder whether you’d get the same decision if it was someone other then Killian. I don’t think he has much left to prove in 100 mile racing, and he likes running with others when they can keep up. And I don’t know Schlarb, but I could see having so much respect for Killian that sharing a win with him is accomplishment enough.
    
    Reply
    1. eric schranz says:
      
      July 19, 2016 at 8:11 am
      
      Many fair points. The best was I can describe my perspective is that I’m the guy who sees a corn maze as a race. If there’s a “start” and “finish” sign, I’m racing the sonofabitch. Can’t help myself, and I–for better or for worse–expect others to feel the same. Human nature, I suppose.
      Again, their decision to finish how they want (and to deal with sponsors bonus money, etc), but I’d much rather have seen them race it out, hug at the finish, and share a beer together.
      (And I’ll add that this finish inadvertently overshadowed some incredible performances by Frosty, Jeff Browning, and others. All and all a great…ahem…race.
      
      Reply
      1. syy says:
        
        July 19, 2016 at 8:18 am
        
        I assume that they both get an automatic entry to next year’s race…uh…run? If so, then maybe that contributed to their decision to tie. Kind of like the Prisoner’s Dilemma. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t9Lo2fgxWHw
      2. Dean G says:
        
        July 19, 2016 at 8:23 am
        
        Eric,
        
        I think a lot of it comes down to Kilian and his way of viewing things. A view that leaves some people frustrated at times. I mean, remember when he ran UTMB with his buddies for 100 miles, going at least 1 hour slower than he was capable of…?
        
        …But that’s just him. And yeah, sometimes I think, doh, I want to see what happens if he gives a Prefontaine effort. But I’ve come to believe we only see that kind of effort from KJ when he’s on his solo quests to beat himself.
        
        And that’s okay. I’ve come to respect it and, over time, I’ve migrated from your ‘a corn maze is a throw down, bitch’ attitude to a little bit more in the middle. I like the way he looks at the world.
        
        Although, I do dream of what it would be like to have his kind of talent, and in those dreams, I do imagine trying to break 21 hours at HR and just blow everyone away.
      3. eric schranz says:
        
        July 19, 2016 at 8:35 am
        
        Frustrating for sure. Thanks for offering that perspective. A lot of this also comes from growing up with my sister. She’s a naturally gifted runner who could’ve been a dominant force in (probably B-level) mid-distance running, but has no interest in “beating other people” or competition. Meanwhile, I’m naturally competitive and worked my butt off for AG awards. I don’t understand her, and I don’t understand Kilian.
  3. Des says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 5:12 pm
    
    Eric, thanks for saying what I’m sure at least a few of us were thinking. I get that this is part of what makes ultra running/racing special particularly at an event as tough as Hardrock..BUT it’s not like this decision was made in the last few miles after dueling the final stages, it was made at mile 80! It’s a race and these guys are sponsored elites, not mid-packers just happy to finish.
    
    Congrats to both runners, it’s a great story but it just feels a little off to me.
    
    Reply
Neil says:

July 19, 2016 at 7:26 am

I really love the daily news but just can’t at all at all agree with your analogy of the Hardrock co-winners as compared to a Final Four game ending in a tie. That said, if a Final Four game did end in a tie and the two teams could go on to experience being a champion (even a co-champion) at the highest level they were presently competing at, they’d probably take it and never forget the ride.

Others are already commenting on why this race is a bit different and why them finishing together is actually pretty damn cool, so I won’t go further into that. I suspect many more will present similar takes on this as well, as I think you’re going to be mostly alone by yourself on an island with your opinion on this one.

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 7:43 am
  
  That’s what’s great about decent and constructive dialogue. Not everyone has to agree! 🙂
  My only point will be that I’m not on an island at all. I spoke with quite a few runners this weekend at TRT100–including some prominent past URP guests–and the overwhelming majority’s opinion was that tying a race was weak. Their words and opinions, not mine.
  
  Reply
A. Goat says:

July 19, 2016 at 7:27 am

The Hardrock 100 race?

Oh… you mean the Hardrock 100 Endurance Run. That one?

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 7:38 am
  
  Totally a fair point.
  OK, so the 100m dash in the Olympics isn’t called a “race” either, but would we argue whether it’s a race against “time” or “place”? No.
  
  Reply
  1. Alex says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 7:45 am
    
    It… kind of is. Except they charge quite a lot of money for entrance, keep time, recognize place, and award the winner entry in next year’s event. None of that sounds like a group run, because it isn’t. It’s a race with a narrative that borders on mythology, and calling it a run perpetuates that, no matter how nonsensical it is.
    
    That said, people can finish a race however they want. It’s a little boring, but this isn’t a spectator sport anyway.
    
    Reply
    1. Emir says:
      
      July 19, 2016 at 8:18 am
      
      As Eric said, we don’t all have to agree. I found the ending rather interesting and not boring at all. It would’ve been boring seeing Kilian pull away with 10 miles to go and win it again.
      
      Reply
2. Joey Schrichte says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 7:42 am
  
  And Dale isn’t a Race Director. He’s the Run Director
  
  Reply
  1. Peter Andersson says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 8:53 am
    
    I think Kilian have reached a level where less than five people in the world can run with him for long even on a good day – hence he seems more interrested in making friends with those people than necessarily beating them – it’s lonely at the top – remember he’s already done tag team attempts at big summit FKTs with that guy from Peru that snatched two from him before they got to know each other – you’re the one who linked to that.
    
    Reply
    1. Peter Andersson says:
      
      July 19, 2016 at 8:55 am
      
      That wasn’t meant as a reply to a previous post, sorry.
      
      Reply
sam bosworth says:

July 19, 2016 at 7:27 am

I’m a backpacker (camelbak) if I go in the Grand Canyon. What is this olympic racewalking where they examine your cadence to see whether or not you’re gona be disqualified (barred)? The manner in which I choose to move my feet is my own damn business. General speaking people who’s cadence resembles a “run” have far better manners than most weekend warriors that litter, make noise , don’t know how to walk single file on single track (hey its in the name right!)

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Paul B says:

July 19, 2016 at 8:01 am

Don’t be a wuss bag Eric and get the shoes dirty

Reply
1. eric schranz says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 8:03 am
  
  Yeah, I figured I’d get some of that. I feel like someone buying trail shoes based on looks, but dangit, these really are sexy shoes.
  Haven’t worn Cascadias in a long time, so I’m anxious to try them out.
  
  Reply
  1. John D. says:
    
    July 21, 2016 at 3:33 pm
    
    Yeah I wanted a pair until I saw the price. Dang! I thought running was inexpensive. NOT!
    
    Reply
Dan P says:

July 19, 2016 at 8:38 am

If it’s not a race they should not time it and the “winner” should not get auto entry the next year. It is either a race or not. How do you have a winner if it is not a race? I don’t blame the runners but HR thrives on all the attention it gets by letting these elite runners bypass the lottery and then they try to convince everyone it isn’t a race. So call it what it is; an opportunity for a few average runners to win a lottery spot to line up next to handpicked elites in a communal running event.Reference

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1. Dean G says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 9:14 am
  
  I agree. I also think it muddies the choice Kilian and Jason made to say “it’s a run”.
  
  These guys didn’t start in the morning with the goal of not competing or not getting a great time… They came to race… They came to a timed event that calls the fastest person a winner.
  
  What makes their decision cool to me – is that at a certain point they said – we’re so close in performance today – and what we’re doing is so hard – let’s share the win. Let’s share the win because running 100 miles is so hard, and takes so many hours, that we want to acknowledge the great performance of the other.
  
  Mind you, I don’t know that I would be the enlightened. And we all know for sure Eric wouldn’t be 😉
  
  Reply
Marl says:

July 19, 2016 at 9:09 am

I’m totally with you Eric on Hardrock, and I’m a hardcore Kilian’s fan. Unfortunately in the era of PC reigning the Internet nobody will easily admit that the victory* (yes, with asterisk) was lame. We’re going hear it only in personal conversations as you had experienced. Bringing up dictionary definitions to justify what went straight against the common sense? C’mon… It’s a race, there is timing, they call you a champion, etc. It’s a 101 psychology – if Jason is aware of Kilian’s racing style, and from the irunfar interview we know he is, he must live with some questions concerning his victory*. Christmas came early this year to him.

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Dean G says:

July 19, 2016 at 9:17 am

Am the same way — have a friend who can run 6 minute miles for hours just falling out of bed.

Never trains. Doesn’t even really race.

I consider smacking them on the head at least once a week.Reference

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1. Dean G says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 9:18 am
  
  Mean for Eric and his comment about his sister far above
  
  Reply
Patrick Thurber says:

July 19, 2016 at 9:20 am

I really don’t agree with your thinking on this and I’m surprised no one has mentioned that Hardrock has never billed itself as a race. The organizers point out frequently that it is a “run” and they emphasize that Hardrock is its own thing…not a standard trail race at all. Most interviews and race reports also highlight the community spirit and celebratory nature of Hardrock…not its depth of competition (which it almost never has). Also, elite runners do not bypass the lottery, this is a well-known aspect of the event to those of us who wanted to see Anton get in during his racing heyday a few years ago. Personally, I like that Hardrock stubbornly refuses to become another trail race swept up in the current popularity of the sport. I don’t see any reason that the event should homogenize itself. Keep Hardrock Hardrock.Reference

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1. Dan P says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 9:41 am
  
  5 runners bypass the lottery every year. This is admitted by the race organizers. Anton likely didn’t get in for not talking up HR in his younger years. He was known to call it hard walk. Maybe that did not sit well with the guy that picks the 5 lucky runners every year. If you really believe Frost, Killian, Olsen and the other sponsored runners that all started getting in the last few years won the lottery I’ve got some ocean front property in Ouray for you.
  
  They do not bill it as a race but there is a giant clock ticking down and the winner gets in every year. The guy that runs it is referred to as a race director in interviews. Not an event coordinator. Somehow the most dominant female mountain runner “won” the lottery on her 2nd try after writing a letter to the board the year before. I’d argue for the size of the field and the “lottery” entry process the depth of competition actually seems abnormally high the last several years.
  
  I like Hardrock, the people are great, the course is great, maybe I’ll get lucky and run it someday. However let’s not kid ourselves that Hardrock is this special snowflake that is equally open to all and does not bias towards elites or well known personalities of the sport when they fully and openly admit to handpicking 5 people to bypass the lottery.
  
  Reply
  1. Patrick Thurber says:
    
    July 19, 2016 at 11:43 am
    
    Fair point on the 5 entry spots, although 5 total runners does not quite mean the same thing as saying “Elites can bypass the lottery.” If that were always true, we would see much bigger elite fields every year. “Abnormally high competition” at this point means maybe 5 elite guys and 3 elite women…I still don’t see how we can armchair quarterback an event like this and be disappointed that it isn’t competitive in the same vein as Western or UTMB. Additionally, people dream of running UTMB, too, but I would guess for slightly different reasons than Hardrock.
    
    By no means am I the type of person who argues against change or progression, however, I just don’t see the point in pinning our desire to see competition on an event like Hardrock specifically. Especially when those desires then turn to publicly criticizing Kilian and Schlarb’s decision to finish together. For a variety of reasons, Hardrock won’t ever be competitive in the way that several people on this forum are hoping. My point is: That’s great, too.
    
    And, I disagree: Hardrock IS a special snowflake…which is why we all want to run it so badly.
    
    Reply
Brian says:

July 19, 2016 at 10:07 am

A few questions come to mind:
Would Killian have done this his first year of running Hardrock, before he had established his dominance over the course? Just wondering aloud.
There’s a lot of talk about Hardrock being a “run” and not a “race.” But as a couple of commentators have already noted, why give special acknowledgement and privileges to the winners? Why keep time?
Is competition (striving against) antithetical to the communal spirit of races like Hardrock?

Reply
Ryan Good says:

July 19, 2016 at 10:57 am

Man if they’re having a hard time dealing with trail runners, just wait til the hordes of PokemonGo people show up!Reference

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Travis Fitzgerald says:

July 19, 2016 at 11:06 am

Wow! Gary’s video is amazing!
Something he left out and should be noted about cell phones –

JUST BECAUSE IT SAYS ‘NO SERVICE’ – DOESN’T MEAN ‘NO SERVICE’
If you keep your cell phone on airplane mode to save battery, but get into a pickle and turn it back on only to find it says ‘searching for service’, DONT PUT IT BACK ON AIRPLANE MODE.

From working with SAR – cell phones can often say ‘no signal’ even though a signal is still reaching one or more towers. There is often enough signal for a faint ping to reach every no and then, especially if you are on an elevated area like a hill or mountain top. With that in mind, wait to take your cell phone out of airplane mode till you reach high ground if you can.
Even if a cell phone only makes one ping to one tower, leaving it on for a longer period of time can increase the number of pings and help lay out a trail of movement for SAR teams.

Reply
1. eric schranz says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 11:55 am
  
  That’s really good info Travis. I didn’t know that about “no service.” Thanks.
  
  Reply
2. Mitch says:
  
  July 19, 2016 at 5:52 pm
  
  Also, text messages can sneak out on a much weaker signal or on a short burst of reception. Set your phone to send message when possible. This helps us in SAR too if you can describe your surroundings or give a location or condition report to someone who can relay it to us. Many places are adding text to 911 service too.
  
  Reply
Evan says:

July 19, 2016 at 11:15 am

Interesting dilemma – i even get some dirty looks on my local trails here in CTReference

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Scotty Kummer says:

July 19, 2016 at 11:30 am

I’m not competitive at all, and I’d be more likely to run with someone than pass them. I could even see myself finishing like that with a friend toward the back. But as a fun of the race and sport I felt weird about both the ending and the way that I almost feel pressured to say it really shows how beautiful the sport is. I’d have liked there to be a winner. I generally don’t like ties.

But I’m not going to lie…I could also see myself feeling like whoever sprinted off was a total dick and complaining about that too. So go figure. 🙂

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eric schranz says:

July 19, 2016 at 12:03 pm

Now that we’ve got “it’s a race, no it’s a run” AND a doper at UTMB, we’ll have plenty to talk about in Boulder on Aug 6!

Reply
Mike H says:

July 19, 2016 at 12:19 pm

As to competition in general, we all know people that frustratingly waste talent. That’s not the same thing as having to, always, be ultra-competitive in everything. Stellar athletes can and do appreciate certain things, in a sportsmanlike way, for the ‘love of the game.’ So, too, can competitiveness be associated with less-than-stellar athletes. It doesn’t have to be either-or, al the time….I’ve had workouts with friends where we had fun trying to kill each other, and really got the best of ourselves — sometimes comical unspoken races to the top of the next hill, etc. I’ve had enjoyable races and events (cycling comes to mind, working in a pack) where outsprinting at the end seems foolish compared to chatting with a friend, or simply running fluidly alongside each other.
On the opposite side, I know of sub-sub-elite ultra blogs over the years proudly outsprinting some random person for a non-notable placing by mere seconds. (One recent account was middle-aged dude sprinting past a woman at the end). And in every half marathon where I’ve watched my wife, I’ve seen similar pathetic dudes outsprinting her at the end (~2.5 hours). Or you’ll see it on the trail, the person with the grim look on their face that kicks it up a notch instead of smiling and saying ‘Hi.’ You may call it human nature, but it’s not always a good personality trait. There can be a balance.

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Mike H says:

July 19, 2016 at 12:38 pm

As to HR100 in particular — you really should see it in person!

I think Jason’s effort is getting the shaft here because it is implied (but by no means certain) that it was Kilian’s choice alone. Even if it were more likely that he would have won (quite possible), he at least felt he had more to lose by not running with Jason. Not to mention Jason’s incredible uphill charge to catch back up to the leaders.

While a tie in this case is a bit different than other sports, they have their own idiosyncrasies of competition vs. sportsmanship. Consider,
Basketball games ending with series of fouls by the losing team
Basketball flopping!
Football teams taking a knee* or clearly losing teams subbing players to prevent injury
(*Consider that playoff tiebreakers can be based on total points, why not run up the score)?
The concept of hockey fights and enforcers
Soccer match-fixing for cup/playoff seeding
NASCAR dynamics when a lapped competitor interferes with the leaders (perhaps to influence series standing)
Baseball IHBP
Any running or cycling race that starts with a slow pack
*
Those examples from other sports are instances where it is not 100% wire-to-wire competition, but instead strategies at the margins of the rules

Finishing together was strategic karmically as well as logistically (because of the returning-champion allotment).

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Craig says:

July 19, 2016 at 12:56 pm

Totally with you Eric.

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TB says:

July 19, 2016 at 2:16 pm

Kilian is why this happened. Let’s face it, at a event like this he’s been unbeatable. From the iRunFar interviews it seems he didn’t even ‘train’ for this. Can you imagine.
Take him out of it this year and it’s a race all the way. Don’t get me wrong Jason was super strong and I personally have no issue with Kilian or the way they chose to finish, but any long mountain race with Kilian is not the same as it is without him.

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Michel (Mike) Bonnell says:

July 20, 2016 at 9:12 am

Funny. I keep hearing/reading over and over that our sport (ultra / trail running) is unique (read: better) than other forms of running (road/track) because ours is a community. ‘Ultra is a community – we talk and help each other during events while road/track runners just race.’ – if I had a dime for every time that sentiment was expressed by Eric and Sarah and other past hosts I’d be able to buy a whole box of GU’s. Funnier still…. they were right – well in my experience. Now, we are witness to a beautiful ultra moment and we should be lauding it… but what we read is…. dissatisfaction. It’s a shame. How often has this type of thing happened? It’s such a rarity…why can’t folks just appreciate it? Don’t you get enough satisfaction from the results of the 99% of all the other events (run/races) that you could sit back, smile, and just admire the beauty of this gesture, and think, “cool.”

“Jamie” had a great point. Eric had no issue whatsoever with his guests “Colleen and Chris” crossing the line together (great podcasts btw) which begs the question, why would he and others have such a reaction to Killian and Jason doing the same? The answer to that question is interesting and revelatory. Here is my take:

1) Elite runners OWE us something.
2) The fallacy that the result to a race, or event is proof of a person’s worth.
3) “The 1st loser” mentality – where only the winner is appreciated and all others are, in essence losers.

I wonder if people would have been as ‘insulted’ by this result, if the co-winners had both been American? (snicker, snicker…I seriously wonder if this is the case….but I’m actually including this to try and stir the pot a bit)

I loved the result of this race. I love the idea that both of these men (such a thing has been seen before…but more frequently by women ) were able to ignore the expectations of others and be true to themselves. They shared a great & gruelling experience – good for them for deciding how they wanted it to end and how they wanted to remember it …by them and by others. WE make heroes and gods out of mortal men and women… and then we expect them to conform to our vision of how a hero or god must behave. Good for Killian and Jason to live their own lives the way they want.

Shame for you (not: ‘on you’, but ‘for you’) for seeing negative when it was such a great and positive thing.

Reply
1. John D. says:
  
  July 21, 2016 at 3:42 pm
  
  Here Here! Better said then I ever could have. Thank-you!
  
  Reply

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