USATF Ultra Team Invitational – Is this what we want?

I’ve received a copy of a letter sent by the USATF MUT Council announcing that the Federation will “sponsor” a team scoring competition (the USATF Ultra Team Invitational) at a few upcoming events, namely the wildly popular The North Face Endurance Championship in San Francisco in December, Lake Sonoma 50 in April, and The Rut in Montana in Sept ’17. All big events in the ultra world.

Please see the letter for more information and my thoughts and questions below.

The good news:

Kami Semick is in charge of this, and Kami’s a solid advocate for not just the sport, but for professional runners. She’s been around for over a decade and understands the need for controlled growth.

The other good news is hey, this is what we’ve been talking about for years!

The bad news:

It’s USATF, and I’m not a fan. While I support 92% of the Nike Trail Elite program, Nike Corporate has made questionable decisions and I believe the USATF/Nike duo will not be good for our sport. Both organizations have an abysmal history of PED abuse and while I recognize that it’s already permeated our borders to an extent, I’d like to keep that as far away from MUT running as possible.

What say you, what say me?

If I were able to go out on a run right now, I’d head out for the trails, noodle this through my noggin for a few hours, and report back, but I’m still on the dang DL. So what say you?

Is this big news? Will it take off? Will it affect the Average Joe runner?

Who do you see participating? Elites for rival gear manufacturers? Local clubs?

Will USATF/Nike money influence made by Race Directors?

Will this be an opportunity for companies to increase sponsor activity? Is Nike Corporate trying to gain a foothold (pun intended!) in the MUT world?

Is this much ado about nothing?

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20 Responses to "USATF Ultra Team Invitational – Is this what we want?"

Ryan Ghelfi says:

August 19, 2015 at 1:54 pm

Well of course I am a bit biased here, and not by my Nike ties. I believe that team sports are far more compelling than individual ones, and I believe in our sport of ultrarunning. So I am super excited that there will be an opportunity to create an awesome show and have some fun among teams.I think for the average Joe who competes in/watches these races this change will only help make spectating a bit more interesting. And not just to see who wins, but now it will matter who comes in 3rd, 5th, 10th, or 30th. Your team will only be as strong as your 3rd runner, and you never know who that 3rd runner will be.

I honestly doubt than Nike corporate cares much at all about this endeavor. (shit most of them probably have no idea its even happening) I think that USATF saw the merit in building a team competition last year and they did something about it!! bravo. Creating this part of the sport will be great for athletes, be super fun, and make races more engaging to watch.

I think we should be stoked, athletes, fans, media! It’s a great opportunity to do something new and exciting. Anyways, I guess I should step off the soap box. but I just wanted to counter some of Eric’s criticism of this being USATF, Nike, Drugs ect issue. I really don’t think it is at all. I know many of the people who are on these different teams, certainly Nike pretty well. And I know these athletes are genuine rad people, and that’s really all that should matter at this point.

See you all in Marin in December!

Reply
1. eric schranz says:
  
  August 19, 2015 at 2:31 pm
  
  The format is exactly what you and I have been wishing for since last year. If it catches on it’ll bring all sorts of fun new aspects to the sport while leaving the original structure in place. Howver, I’m still uncomfortable with USATF’s involvement in big events in our sport. Both USATFs and Nike’s acceptance of PEDs is bothersome, to say the least, and I’ll fight it with any opportunity.
  
  The big question is…who’ll be on your team?
  
  (And further, if this catches on, I’m interested to see how athletes choose which team they’ll run for. Main shoe sponsor? Pack? Udo’s? Supplements? Within the context of that conversation, Nike will run away with it, as most athletes under contract with Nike, for whatever reason, don’t have sub-sponsors like most other sponsored MUT runners do.
  
  Reply
Paul says:

August 19, 2015 at 2:31 pm

Would be nice if the USATF MUT council were to consider the same initiative for road racing – specifically the 100K and 24hr events – both of which have extensive highly competitive histories on the international circuit. The US 24hr is looking at new qualifying standards this window. Would be nice to see the USATF try to bolster some serious competition there as well.

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David says:

August 19, 2015 at 3:39 pm

This is going to be awesome. I wouldn’t worry too much about the USATF’s involvement. I’d say overall it is a huge win and I am excited to check it out.

It is exactly what everyone was hoping for the last few years at North Face and Lake Sonoma.

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RyanL says:

August 19, 2015 at 5:05 pm

I think it sounds pretty cool and would be fun to watch. And I’m glad they are using the big events of the year too instead of trying to build something up around smaller races that may be great but just might not on the top runners radars. I’m curious what the incentive for a team to try and get a group of runners together and try to win the thing, I might be missing something but is it just bragging rights?

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Matt Flaherty says:

August 19, 2015 at 10:35 pm

Overall, this seems like a good thing. There isn’t a ton of information on the details here, but it basically sounds like they are changing nothing to existing race structure (at least not actively) and just adding a cool, team-scored component.

Yes, USATF is often incompetent (the Board in particular), and yes, they have an embarrassingly bad record when it comes to doping, athlete rights, public and media interaction, etc. (well, most everything really). But, as I said in a slightly-USATF-bashing post last week, I think that is largely within the non-MUT sectors of USATF. I think the various committee members within MUT running at USATF are all pretty great and doing what they can for our sport. Of course people’s visions for what is good for the sport will vary, but I think most everyone involved with MUT-USATF is a positive influence (and certainly well-intentioned).

Re: the Nike influence, again I’m sure there’s nothing malicious, but I think Eric is fair to question things and feel some uneasiness. Given many of the things in Nike’s recent past: the callousness (complicity?) to doping, the verbal assaults by top-level running execs, the back-door USATF dealings and influences… an amoral culture clearly pervades some aspects of what they do. I am not saying that is true of Nike Elite Trail, I’m just saying it’s fair to be concerned—negative changes are incremental. (Just like doping culture creeping into the sport; and I’m very glad when people are concerned and speak openly about this stuff instead of being ostriches.)

Finally re: this particular team scoring plan, it could be pretty cool if done well. It will definitely be interesting to see how it plays out. For me, for instance, this just increased the likelihood that I’ll run LS50 next year. I had considered it; this sweetens the deal. I love team sports and actual XC-style team scoring could be great! Optimistically, better for fans, athletes, and media, just like Ghelfi said above. Two final thoughts: (1) it seems like there are just bragging rights at play here, though it would be awesome to see some athlete prize money eventually, and (2) one way this could play out poorly is if the funding offered by various team sponsors is radically different. For instance (and I think Eric alludes to this in his follow-up comment above), if one sponsor fully funded a 10-athlete team for all three races, they may well dominate—not because they’re “better” per se, but because of resources.

Anyway, overall probably a good thing. I hope this is a positive development for the sport!

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Jim says:

August 20, 2015 at 6:12 am

XC style team scoring in ultras sounds pretty badass to me. It might bring the positive attention and sponorship to the sport that many are looking for. I hope USATF proper stays out of it and lets the MUT division do its thing.

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  August 20, 2015 at 9:18 am
  
  Exactly.
  
  Reply
Ultramarathon Daily News, Thurs, Aug 20 says:

August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am

[…] Awesome: Team scoring at North Face, Sonoma, and The Rut! TBD: It’s sponsored by USATF. See all the details here and please weigh in! […]

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Alex says:

August 20, 2015 at 8:06 am

It’s a relatively neat idea, but the reason people care about team sports, fundamentally, is because they identify with them. You cheer for your school, your city, etc. Of course there are exceptions. But for most people, it’s almost tribal in nature. I don’t really see that level of investment here, when we’re talking about teams sorted by… shoe companies? Were I fast enough to be sponsored by someone, I’d certainly care. (But nobody lines up for a 1:20 half marathoner, obviously.) As a fan, however, why cheer for Nike, or Salomon, The North Face, etc? I have zero invested in those companies.

And listing them out raises another question, to me: How many sponsors are there that can really field a competitive team? Gear and supplement companies almost always overlap with shoe deals. And maybe it’s my roadie goggles, but I’m used to seeing teams broken down that way. Viewed through that lens, there aren’t many viable team. Montrail and Pearl Izumi dropped out; New Balance is basically just Anton; Brooks only has Jurek. Hoka and Altra are the only other names that comes to mind that could put together a competitive team. And even then, it’s pretty clearly Nike vs. Salomon, at this point.

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  August 20, 2015 at 9:55 am
  
  All great points.
  
  It’ll be interesting to see how elites align themselves. Someone like Sage, Max, Mike, Stephanie, or Krissy with multiple sponsors will have some tough decisions. Hopefully it’ll push the sponsors to pay athletes more (and maybe add more athletes under contract) to ensure they run under a specific team.
  
  But that’s all dependent on whether anyone cares and whether or not the sponsors see a real ROI.
  
  Reply
Sage Canaday says:

August 20, 2015 at 9:01 am

Interesting. But one could just score these races of “sponsored teams” without the USATF being involved at all. This has (from what I see) no real benefit for the athletes. What it does do is attach the USATF label to events that used to be considered more independent….it also is going to require more membership fees from each athlete on a team.

Now if they brought in some legit drug testing/bio passport draws that would be progress…

When I think back to my roadie days and the 2012 Olympic Marathon Trials (a USATF event of course) I think about how us athletes that had the “A” standard were told to pay an entry fee …and then we had to undergo this crazy process where all our logos were measured and then (many) got taped up with black electrical tape. No more than 1 shoe company and 1 club name and no more than 3″ of a logo showing. It was a pretty ridiculous process and actually took a team of workers from USATF and quite a bit of time. I got logos that were 1/2 of a inch long throughly covered in tape (this was on a Brooks-Hansons kit too!) so that they made it harder for me to open gel pockets in my shorts (where these 1/2″ logos were located and barely visible ). No way very many people even saw any of my logos since I was mid-pack and running 11-12mph on a paved road in Houston…but it was USATF rules. Funny thing is, the Nike athletes didn’t seem to have any of that tape on their singlets…

Again though, I think the team competition is healthy for the sport. It’s just the actual runners themselves (instead of just a few, select group) should have more of a say and voice in the future of the sport. Transparency is also good. What can we do about this?

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Adam Wilcox says:

August 20, 2015 at 9:39 am

Mediocre idea, toxic sanctioning body. Net negative overall, I’d say.

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Tropical John says:

August 21, 2015 at 12:33 pm

We weighed this carefully when Kami approached us to do this at Lake Sonoma. The points made here are all valid. We made it absolutely clear to USATF that they will have no control over the event, other than they will be responsible for team verification and scoring. The team competition adds a wrinkle that a few folks may find interesting/alluring. It might attract a few more elite runners, those who like the team concept or are encouraged by their team to compete. The race will have to leave some spots open for late entering elite runners, but we do that anyway. The upside does seem limited (bragging rights), but anything that encourages top-flight head-to-head competition is a good thing.

I can’t see any downside, so what the heck, why not? (As far as I am concerned, Sage can wear any sized logo he wants and if Nick Symmonds shows up, he can wear whatever he wants when he’s drinking his morning coffee. . .)

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1. eric schranz says:
  
  August 21, 2015 at 1:14 pm
  
  TJ-
  
  Thanks for your input. When I first heard about this, I figured that you, the Mikes, and TNF/Publicis Hawkeye had done your due diligence and ensured that your events couldn’t be co-opted by anyone. Very very good to hear/read that here.
  
  My concern, as I’ve expressed directly to Kami and others involved, is the fact we’re essentially welcoming USATF–perhaps the most toxic governing body in sports next to FIFA–into our sport, and I have a very difficult time finding the upside to this. In a time where the greatest threat to many sports is the taint of PEDs, we’re accepting the two most complicit bodies (USATF and Nike) into the fold by giving them three huge platforms.
  
  The sporting public already doesn’t trust cycling or T&F, let’s not add ourselves to that list by partnering with a dirty organization.
  
  I’ll be hosting a discussion on URP about this soon (with the USATF MUT Council) where we’ll get a lot of questions answered and I hope to have my mind changed. If so, this’ll be an awesome advancement for the sport and tons of fun to watch. There’ll be a Bear Republic Brewing team, right?
  
  Shalom Aloha,
  Eric
  
  Reply
  1. Tropical John says:
    
    August 21, 2015 at 5:30 pm
    
    >> we’re essentially welcoming USATF–perhaps the most toxic governing body in sports next to FIFA–into our sport.
    
    Fair point, though it can be argued that they’re already involved on a modest level. It’s well documented that I’m no fan of USATF, though I hold the MUT folks in significantly higher regard (mostly because I know most of them). This team competition thing is really pretty minor though it could, I suppose, be argued that it’s the camel’s nose under the tent.
    
    The shoe company vs. shoe company comments are particularly spot on. Honestly, it’s hard to see how anybody who isn’t sponsored by one of said companies will give a rat’s ass. But, at Sonoma, TNF and the Rut there ARE a lot of folks who are sponsored. And if this team competition adds any competitive fuel to the fire, that’s a good thing.
    
    The ultra running community is highly independent and automatically suspicious of anybody who wants to “organize” things. Especially, I expect, of USATF who – as you accurately point out – has done a remarkably wretched job of being in charge of track and field in this country.
    
    Reply
Kami Semick says:

August 21, 2015 at 2:00 pm

Thanks to those who have responded. Seems the feedback in general is positive, although there are some concerns about USATF’s intentions.

Speaking as the person from the Mountain, Ultra, Trail Council (MUT) of USATF, who spearheaded this Invitational I just want to clarify our intentions. First and foremost it’s important to know that the MUT council is made up of ultra and trail running athletes who care about the sport. We have agreed to be on the MUT council to help make positive change where we can within USATF. We can’t cure all, but at least we are trying to do the right thing in our corner of the organization.

Secondly, I want to say this Invitational is the exact opposite of forced branding for national teams (Nick Symmonds’s issue). What we are proposing is putting a light on commercial teams – sponsors and the athletes who run for those sponsor, who have helped to grow the sport. And to do it in a fun way.

Third, this idea (team scoring) has been circulating in the ultra community for some time. As an independent governing body not tied to any sponsor, we at MUT thought that we could help to organize and be proactive to the requests of the community that we serve.

Thanks Eric for starting this conversation. I think it’s an important one to have. We on the MUT council want to hear feedback. If anyone wants to reach out to me personally on this or any other MUT related issue, please do so. [email protected]

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Amy says:

August 21, 2015 at 2:01 pm

When this was discussed in the past, I never found the team idea in ultrarunning to be all that interesting, IF we’re talking about teams based on shoe companies or other sponsors. Because that comes down to $$, and whatever shoe/sock/nutrition company is at the top and funding runners at that particular moment (shifts pretty regularly…). Is it really that interesting to watch corporate entities compete? And, it seems that those jumping on board are folks that are recent CC grads that miss the team aspect of sport, but there must be a more interesting way to form teams. Running clubs? States? Something you feel passionate about as a team (your location or the group you run with on a regular basis) is much more interesting to me than a corporation where the big guy ($$) is going to win. Especially when you have runners jumping from sponsor to sponsor on a yearly basis. There’s really no allegiance there besides who’s paying the bills/giving you free shoes/gear. Allegiance is why you back a team, so is this really interesting for “fans” to watch?

And if you don’t run for one of the 3 or 4 big dogs that are given all of these team spots, as an “elite” you can’t get in through the “elite” pool?

Reply
USATF MUT Team Scoring Idea with Kami Semick says:

September 3, 2015 at 1:31 pm

[…] this post last week, I discussed USATF’s proposition to start and sponsor a team scoring format in a […]

Reply
Team Scoring at North Face Endurance Championships says:

November 17, 2015 at 10:57 am

[…] few months ago, it was announced that the USATF would “sponsor” a team scoring event at a few big ultras around the country. I had the USATF MUT Council’s spokesperson Kami […]

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